Workflow: Using Quark V9.3, Illustrator CS6 and new Pantone

Discuss QuarkXPress color management functionality including DeviceN workflows

Workflow: Using Quark V9.3, Illustrator CS6 and new Pantone

Postby max.peter » 18 Sep 2012, 07:22

I think placing in XPress EPS files containing spot colors can produce unpredictable results, as Dan Logan (from Quark) states here:
http://forums.quark.com/p/28756/115474.aspx#115474
Three months ago I worked with some test EPS files and I saw that Dan Logan was right.
Unfortunately, I have not acces to my CS6 suite right now to make further tests.
I usually do not get my PDF files by exporting from XPress, but by distilling the PS file. Because of this, I can't tell if a exported PDF file can be managed in optimal conditions by certain RIP software (because here is the big problem with PDF files for print, they are good or they are not good for the RIP software). That is why I told you in my previous answer to talk to your ptinter. Give him a PDF file and ask him to tell you if it is good for his RIP or not.
I hope this can help you. If not, please let me know.
Regards
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Workflow: Using Quark V9.3, Illustrator CS6 and new Pantone

Postby peregrine101 » 18 Sep 2012, 08:25

Hi Max!
Are you saying that you convert all your EPS/vector files into CMYK before your final placement into Quark? I've never done that. I usually just place the AI Native file in For Placement Only (FPO) until final approval -- then create the EPS file and replace the AI file, convert the spots to process than output Press Quality right from Quark. I've never had a problem! The Post Cards, Business Cards, Brochures and others come back from the printer beautiful! I read somewhere that some folks don't even bother converting the spot colors in Quark to proces, they just go ahead and create the PDF with Composite CMYK chosen and let Quark do the rest.
I'm actually thinking of creating a sample page with lots of variable to send to the printer for output. It will cost me some, but it's probably the best real life test -- since I have a couple of jobs coming up in the next week or two that if the colors aren't right, I'm in trouble.
Also, I [b]just heard from Quark. They told me they tried to save AI files both with and with ICC profiles. And when they bring them into Quark, they both show up in color -- where my native AI file with ICC shows up black. I sent them both AI files and Quark files. They are going to get back to me. I'll let you all know what they say when they call me back.
Thanks!
Robert
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Workflow: Using Quark V9.3, Illustrator CS6 and new Pantone

Postby max.peter » 18 Sep 2012, 09:08

Hi Robert,
I usually don't use spot colors, unless I have a special request from my clients, but in these cases my works are printed using spot colors.
XPress v. 9 has launched before Adobe CS6. At that time, Quark's technicians didn't know what is Adobe going to do with its software packages. That is why some problems may occur during inserting files from Adobe CS into XPress layouts. For the same reason I do not use nor AI/EPS files that can generate unespected results, neither files containing spot colors.
When I need a certain color, I use a process color guide and I ask to my printer to keep unaltered every percentage of the process colors. I think that using a spot color, then converting it to process color is a unnecessary step, as long as I check the final PDF file very carefuly.
I'm working for several glossy magazines and for some time I had not any problem.
For the final PDF files, I run several preflight checkings in Acrobat Pro. When I have complex files, I usually check them using the RIP software from my printer. This does not cost me, because my printer is happy to receive "good" files (he has to check and eventually to "repair" the files from other guys who are clients of him)
Thanks!
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Workflow: Using Quark V9.3, Illustrator CS6 and new Pantone

Postby peregrine101 » 19 Sep 2012, 09:23

Hey:
I finally heard from Quark yesterday. Again, I explained the entire issue with them but they didn't want to do a remote screen like Apple and Adobe did for me. Instead, they asked that I send them sample AI files.

Today, they just called me back. They said when they opened other Illustrator files and saved them with and without ICC profiles and imported them into Quark, there was no issue. But when they did it with my files, they were able to duplicate the problem. I asked if they created new AI files using spot colors from the Pantone Plus palette, he said no. And refused to try. They said when they opened Illustrator files, there was no issue so I have to go back to Adobe to see what I need to change in my settings, because they never changed any of their settings/preferences in their Illustrator and there's no issue.

I tried to explain to your tech staff that I can also open up older Illustrator files, save them both with and with ICC and there's no issue. THAT'S BECAUSE THE OLDER FILES USE PANTONE (CMYK) BASED SPOT COLORS. Where as CS6 now only uses PANTONE PLUS (LAB BASED) SPOT COLORS.

Once again, I asked if they would try to create a new Illustrator file, make a box, choose a Pantone Plus color, fill it and save it with and without ICC embedded to prove this is an issue. Once again, all he wanted to tell me was that when they open older files, there's no problem and I must contact Adobe to see what settings I have to change.

I am so D**M frustrated with Quark's tech support right now -- something I pay for[:@] He refused to try a new file to prove that what I'm getting is (unfortunately) the norm right now. Apple helped, Adobe helped but Quark's support didn't do a darn thing.

I need help with this issue so I can create a new workflow. I have a few jobs coming up that I can't mess up on. I sent Dan Logan a request. He's always been very helpful in the past, I'm hoping I can bother him on this one.
Thanks...
Robert
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Workflow: Using Quark V9.3, Illustrator CS6 and new Pantone

Postby eyoungren » 19 Sep 2012, 11:16

Email Matthias too. Dan and Matthias communicate every day. One of them will get resolution for you.
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Workflow: Using Quark V9.3, Illustrator CS6 and new Pantone

Postby Dan Logan » 19 Sep 2012, 13:12

I think the Pantone part is a red herring, actually this happens anytime you have a spot swatch with LAB as its underlying color model. It also happens with Illustrator CS 5 and/or QuarkXPress 8, so it's not new. We just don't see many people using LAB as the underlying color model for spot inks (although as you noticed this is probably starting to bubble to the surface now with Pantone+ swatches if they default to LAB). Until we get this resolved I think your best workaround would be to change the underlying color model to RGB. Although you could also consider not tagging it with a profile or using As-Is output, but just changing to RGB model would be the least disruptive, assuming you're actually trying to maintain the separation integrity of this spot ink (if you're ultimately trying to process separate it then go with CMYK).

Dan Logan
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Workflow: Using Quark V9.3, Illustrator CS6 and new Pantone

Postby peregrine101 » 20 Oct 2012, 05:26

Hi All!
Sorry for such a long time to respond. I've been crazy busy and had to run some tests before I ran a big job.
I did get the results of my post card tests. I'll respond to those results next week.
Thanks for your patience!
Robert
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Workflow: Using Quark V9.3, Illustrator CS6 and new Pantone

Postby peregrine101 » 07 Nov 2012, 03:22

Hi Allagain, sorry for the delay

I ended up creating a 'post card' with the same, exact layout front and back except one side was done the old way with CS4 graphics and the other a 'new' way with CS6 graphics. I then sent the post card to my printer and the results were interesting.
This is what was included in the [b]CS4 layout
[ulist][*]CMYK: 3 strips with a blend going from yellow to magenta to cyan[ulist][*]Strip 1: CS4 AI Native (CMYK) file (with ICC embedded)[*]Strip 2: CS4 AI EPS (CMYK) file (with ICC embedded)[*]Strip 3: Quark (had to create two stips of colors -- yellow to magenta and the other magenta to cyan)[/ulist][*]RGB: 3 strips created like the CMYK ones[*]3 Block sets of colors: 185 red, reflex (my standard mix of 100, 73, 0, 2) and 355 green
[ulist][*]Each set of colors had 3 blocks: AI Native (ICC), AI EPS (ICC) and Quark (using the spot inks generated by the AI files)[/ulist][*]3 Logos: each one an AI EPS/CMYK file[*]Photo: CMYK TIF[/ulist]This is what was included in the [b]CS6 layout
[ulist][*]CMYK: 3 strips with a blend going from yellow to magenta to cyan[ulist][*]Strip 1: CS6 AI Native (CMYK) file (with ICC embedded)[*]Strip 2: CS6 AI EPS (CMYK) file (with ICC embedded)[*]Strip 3: Quark (had to create two stips of colors -- yellow to magenta and the other magenta to cyan)[/ulist][*]RGB: 3 strips created like the CMYK ones[*]3 Block sets of colors: 185 red, reflex (my standard mix of 100, 73, 0, 2) and 355 green
[ulist][*]Each set of colors had 3 blocks: AI Native (ICC), AI EPS (ICC) and Quark (using the spot inks generated by the AI files)[*]Please note: the AI Native with ICC display as black on the Quark file (Quark is aware of this)
[/ulist][*]3 Logos: each one an AI EPS/LAB file
[*]Photo: RGB TIF[/ulist]The results:
[ulist][*]CMYK strips: whether CS4 or CS6 side of the card, there was no difference in the strips![*]RGB strips[ulist][*]CS4 and CS6: all three strips (QX, EPS and AI) printed very differently[*]CS4 and CS6: each respective strip printed the same on both sides -- in other words, the QX strip on both sides looked exactly the same[/ulist][*]3 Block sets of colors[ulist][*]CS4 side: the EPS box printed much lighter (almost hazy) than the AI or QX box[*]CS4 side: the AI and QX box printed exactly the same[*]CS6 side: the EPS box was only slightly lighter[*]CS6 side: the AI and QX box printed exactly the same[/ulist][*]3 Logos: The CS6 LAB files printed bolder[*]Photo: did not see any difference[/ulist]I have 500 of these post cards! So if any of you would like me to send you samples, I would love to! Send me an email with your address and I'll get them out right away!
Since these tests, I've run a few jobs: tri-folds, sell sheets, business cards. My new workflow:
[ulist][*]AI files: I create them using spot colors (as my clients usually want specific Pantone colors) with the new LAB default of Pantone +[ulist][*]I have to save them as EPS files since native AI files with ICC still shows up as black (Quark is aware of this now!)[/ulist][*]Place the EPS files into Quark[ulist][*]I then use the spot color that shows up in the color pallete for text and such
[/ulist][*]Any photos/raster images[ulist][*]I save them as RGB TIF files[/ulist][*]Export: I save as a Press Quality PDF converting colors to process[/ulist]This seemed to work fine. A lot to do about nothing maybe? I don't know. But as many of us expect only the best from ourselves, we do what we need to do to make sure our clients get what they are paying for...
[b]I can't tell you how much I appreciate all your help. Your quick responses (although my last one took forever!) were very helpful!!! It's nice to know this community exists to help each other out!!!
Thanks so much again,
Robert
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Workflow: Using Quark V9.3, Illustrator CS6 and new Pantone

Postby eyoungren » 07 Nov 2012, 15:39

Glad you found a process that works for you Robert. Contributing to the community brings everyone up. Nice work!!!
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Workflow: Using Quark V9.3, Illustrator CS6 and new Pantone

Postby max.peter » 07 Nov 2012, 23:31

Hi peregrine101,
Thank you very much for sharing all these!
My best regards!
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