CMYK colours changing in QXP 10

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Detlev Hagemann
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Joined: 24 Feb 2014, 08:00

CMYK colours changing in QXP 10

Post by Detlev Hagemann » 28 Mar 2014, 07:19

Hi,

sorry for my really not perfect english.

[ulist][*]We are talking about XPress 10.1.01 or the old 10.0.1?[*]We are talking about placed CMYK-Vektor-PDFs or AIs and RGB-pixel-images in a XPress-file?[*]At the end you want to have a CMYK-PDF with unconverted vectors with original CMYK-values and new converted CMYK-pixel-images?[/ulist]
I do not have problems to get this results directly out of XPress 8, 9 or 10 when I use the option "export native transparency" (I think its called in the english version).
In all my xpress workflows over the years I do not flat the transperency or if I must, I do it inside of acrobat.

regards
Detlev

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UtahLlama
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CMYK colours changing in QXP 10

Post by UtahLlama » 28 Mar 2014, 11:44

"Didn't you realise that Quark 7/8 and 9 coped very well with importing RGB *bit mapped* photos and exporting as CMYK certified PDF's? Gone are the days of converting image to larger space wasting CMYK images and then managing multiple image versions urg! RGB to CMYK conversions are pretty good. I stopped converting to CMYK all but the most demanding images ages ago."

there have always been some fairly major gotchas with this.
What you are aiming at with this workflow is the RGB gets converted using a profile to profile conversion BUT you wanted the cmyk numbers (DeviceCMYK) on your Illustrator file to pass through. Quark has done this for you but understand that it relies on a string of Colour Managment Preferences all lining up and the conflicts being resolved in a certain hierachy.
Lets be clear and state that when you choose your output space as either CMYK or CMYK+spot, this is an instruction to profile to profile convert EVERYTHING that is not already in the same colour space, so that includes any CMYK tagged with a different ICC profile.
Lets also be clear and state if a CMYK is not tagged with a profile then Quark will use the one specified in Source set-up
The way to avoid the profile to profile conversion was to use As Is as the output space.
OR rely on the Preference that says Colour manage cmyk source to cmyk detinations being OFF and it TAKING PRIORITY.
There is another CMS Preference that allows you to Colour Manage EPS/PDF Vector files but this has been even flakier in sometimes needing to be on to make quark's screen display work or not[+o(]
Quark10 is supposed to be working towards passing ICC profiles through so it will be the first version able to do so, in order to do so it must re-write the way it handles colour compared to other versions, at the moment it seems to be stuck in the painful teething problems and I expect the problems you are seeing are part of it.
Finally bear in mind that ai/pdf can have ICC (pdf can contain many) but an Illustrator EPS does not have an option to choose whether to save one or not, my understanding of it is that Quark may be picking it out from the ai-native data (ai files tend to have 2 parts ai+pdf or pdf+ai or eps+ai)

Graham PM (Quark)
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CMYK colours changing in QXP 10

Post by Graham PM (Quark) » 29 Mar 2014, 10:24

UtahLlama's post here is one of the most informed expositions about color handling in XPress I have read in these Forums. Let me add my two cents. First, the problem that XPressNorth is seeing is due to a glitch that was accidentally introduced in the last update. It has been addressed and will hopefully make the next release. Second, the rules and regs about color can seem overwhelming, but there are some guidelines I can give. Any time you have graphics that are in one colorspace that need to output to another, conversion of some sort is unavoidable. RGB to CMYK is a complex task. There are two options. Option one is DeviceXXX conversion, which is described in the PostScript and PDF spec. This does a simple conversion based on the idea that CMY is the complement of RGB and K is the grayscale element. In color prefs, if you have "Color Manage Vector EPS/PDF" OFF, then that is what you are going to get for *Device* RGB strokes and fills in PDFs moving to CMYK output. Cyan in RGB [0, 1, 1] complements to [1, 0, 0] in CMY, and so on. The CMYK in this case is written to PDF as DeviceCMYK, so the readout for RGB[0,1,1] will be solid on the Cyan plate. The claim of Device spaces is that the author knows the Devices involved: this can work out just fine for vector graphics. Option two is to describe exactly the device the artwork is authored on, and *maybe* to describe the device it will output to. This is very desirable for photos, typically because the image has an ICCProfile attached that the authoring device (the camera) put there, which takes into account the viewing conditions and the characteristics of the camera recording mechanism. It is also available to describe colors for fills and strokes if the imported graphic is a PDF, for instance. Now, in the color prefs, if you have "Color Manage Vector EPS/PDF" ON, then for RGB to CMYK conversion, the RGB fill and stroke colors are converted to CMYK using the profile you have in the Output set up settings. This profile defaults to something generic, but you can be more specific. (The PDFX/xxx standard specifies an OutputIntent dictionary that would include this CMYK profile). If your RGB source was DeviceRGB, it doesn't have a profile, so the Source Set up profile for RGB is assigned to it: if your RGB is described more accurately using a PDF profile colorspace, that is used. In this scenario, the Output profile tells us the CMYK values that would most closely match a given source color on the target device. If you have specified Cyan in RGB, typically the values that this particular profile tells us will *not* be exactly [1 0 0 0] but more likely some mix like [0.97, 0.02, 0, 0] etc. The profile says that those values have the best chance of matching the original cyan. This is why it is so important to set up your input and output settings correctly: any time things get vague, then you introduce errors into the system which hav a nasty tendency to propagate. Finally, the Graphics Engine in XPress 10 does all the color calcs for all of this, to screen, to output device, etc, on the fly. This is to give you the customer the highest fidelity we can at all times. There are no trade-offs. We are pushing hard and aiming high for our users. This demands much more of your computer than before, and we make use of all those CPU cores you invested in (and wondered if they ever got used) plus any vector services your CPU has. We are continually tweaking and improving this. Sincere apologies if there are mistakes along the way, which are obviously frustrating to all parties. R & D is working very hard to bring you much richer control now and in the future, and along the way there can be mishaps: but the alternative is play-safe stagnation. I would like to think that customers want us to move forward.

Xpressnorth
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CMYK colours changing in QXP 10

Post by Xpressnorth » 02 Apr 2014, 01:07

Support confirms this is and issue and is to fixed as a priority in a future update.

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UtahLlama
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CMYK colours changing in QXP 10

Post by UtahLlama » 02 Apr 2014, 05:37

Thanks for the kind words Graham, I've lifted all the details from posts in the forum, (mainly posted by you[:)])
Once quark 10's colour management is fixed, is the intention to be able to read the (possibly multiple) individual image profiles within a placed pdf or just use the Output Intent if its got one?,
If it's multiple then will AsIs eventually be able to retain them when exporting to PDFX 4?

Graham PM (Quark)
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CMYK colours changing in QXP 10

Post by Graham PM (Quark) » 02 Apr 2014, 13:54

The Graphics Engine knows all about the profiles attached to images in a PDF. At the moment it ignores the Output Intent dictionary because that is likely to be completely different from the Output Intent of other imported PDFs: Perhaps we should look at coallescing all those, or mapping DeviceCMYK spaces we find in the PDF to the Output Intent Profile, but that might be an extra layer of colour meddling that would not be welcomed by some customers. The Output Intent dictionary seems to me to be mostly useful when checking overprint settings, since Acrobat will automatically show overprint preview if the output intent is declared. So in answer to your question, we use the profiles in the PDF, not the OutputIntent dictionary.
Profiles do not yet pass unimpeded into PDF. Theproblem here is PostScript.Specifically, QXP was originally designed to output PostScript internally, PDF is distilled from the PostScript that QXP produces. Alas, PostScript doesn't directly support colour management via ICC Profiles. As it is a language, you can convert the profile mechanism to something that will work, but it is cumbersome. In fact, if you create a new Output SetUp for the AsIs model, you will see a checkbox appear for "Use Device Independent Color". If you select that then you set in motion converting profiles to very large lumps of PostScript. The distiller process is not going to recognize that as a substitute for an ICCProfile so when it gets to the PDF, it will just calculate the colours in your image and passthe colour space as DeviceXXXX.
Internally, the Graphics Engine tries to keep as faithful as possible to the original image, including preserving all the necessary profiles.This is a big step up from previous versions, but it does affect file size, (we are working on a solution right now). So it has all the assets available.
I can't comment on future plans, but clearly, it would be great to get those profiles travelling into the PDF.Fidelity is, after all, the mission statement of the Xenon Graphics Engine.

lpisanec
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Joined: 10 Nov 2013, 13:04

CMYK colours changing in QXP 10

Post by lpisanec » 02 Apr 2014, 22:14

Graham PM (Quark) wrote:The Graphics Engine knows all about the profiles attached to images in a PDF.

Well, that is only 75% true.
The Graphics Engine ignores rendering intents attached to images in a PDF.
Thanks for the detailed explanation of profile handling in QXP. So at the moment (and in my opinion the foreseeable future) there is no way to utilize a late binding workflow with QXP.

BTW Adobe's Distiller does some magic and recognizes the original ICC profile from a postscript CSA and replaces the CSA with the original profile (if it has access to it) when creating the PDF.

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UtahLlama
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CMYK colours changing in QXP 10

Post by UtahLlama » 03 Jun 2014, 22:41

just wondering if a fix for the original problem is anywhere near yet?

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