Bullet Points and Numbering and Hanging Characters

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RGB
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Bullet Points and Numbering and Hanging Characters

Post by RGB » 17 Dec 2014, 11:35

I have always found bullet points and numbering in Quark frustrating. Quark 10 has some built-in presets, but I find these unsatisfactory.

First, when using the default numbering style, numbers appear outside of a text-box, rather than within it. Secondly, entries that follow two-digit numbers are not aligned with previous entries that follow one-digit numbers, which looks sloppy.

I found the Bullets, Numbering and Outline Styles... section of the Edit menu and made a custom number style, but I cannot find the options to make the style behave the way that I want it to behave in terms of how it indents and spaces out points in a list. Any help would be appreciated.

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MikeWenzloff
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Re: Bullet Points and Numbering and Hanging Characters

Post by MikeWenzloff » 17 Dec 2014, 13:02

Like this? Create a new numbering style or modify yours, use the following settings as a springboard to what you want. I didn't modify the one I use to actually work out for triple-digits without the third digit spilling out of the frame. So if your numbering would go that high, more tweaks would be needed.

Mike
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RGB
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Re: Bullet Points and Numbering and Hanging Characters

Post by RGB » 17 Dec 2014, 13:39

Thanks. That's certainly an improvement. Currently, the one-digit numbers align with the second digit of the two-digit numbers, and I would like them to align with the first. Moreover, I'd like to try to increase the space between the number and the text.

EDIT: I figured out how to increase the space between the number and the text by inserting a space as a suffix.

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MikeWenzloff
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Re: Bullet Points and Numbering and Hanging Characters

Post by MikeWenzloff » 17 Dec 2014, 14:46

I always right-align numbers in lists. If you want them left-aligned, look at my first screen shot. Where it says right, change it to left.

You will then need to change some of the other settings. Using spaces isn't likely a good idea.

RGB
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Re: Bullet Points and Numbering and Hanging Characters

Post by RGB » 18 Dec 2014, 07:28

I can change the alignment from right to left, but when I do so, the second line of two-line entries is not aligned with the first. Moreover, the starting point of entries that follow two-digit numbers is not the same as the starting point of entries that follow one-digit numbers.

Changing Minimum Number/Bullet Distance from has en effect on left-aligned text but no discernible effect on right-aligned text. That's why I resorted to a space, which works but is not ideal.

It would help if I understood the difference between Left Indent and First Line in the Paragraph Attributes configuration dialog and Offset in the Bullet Numbering and Outline Styles configuration dialog. All three seem to do the same thing: shift text to the right.

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MikeWenzloff
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Re: Bullet Points and Numbering and Hanging Characters

Post by MikeWenzloff » 18 Dec 2014, 12:08

Probably the best thing is to upload a sample document. Then change one value in one of the appropriate dialogs, save/OK out to the document and see what the change was.

In the paragraph style edit dialog, Left Indent moves the entire block of text inward. It is also what affects where the bullet or number is in relationship to the text frame.
In the same dialog box, down at the bottom, the Minimum Bullet/Number Distance affects the first line of text only.
In the same dialog box, First Line does a similar thing to the above Minimum Bullet/Number Distance at first glance. But it is different.

For instance, all the above and below style settings are font-size dependent, with the exception of the Minimum Bullet/Number Distance. That setting is an absolute means of ensuring that no matter how many digits the numbers go, the first line of a numbered style's text will never clash with the number. If you ever see the clash, or want to avoid it, I would set the positive amount equal to or a bit less than the Offset value. Using a value grater than the Offset will move the first line of text immediately. Using a value less than the Offset will not cause an apparent change in the spacing relationship of the Number/Text first line until the space required for the numbering increases beyond what the negative Offset is.

In the Bullet, Numbering, and Outline Styles dialog box, then the Edit Numbering Style dialog, the Offset value is typically used for a negative amount and moves the position of the bullet or number. Often this negative amount is equal to the amount for your Left Indent from your paragraph style.

So in the sample file, I have a Left Indent of 0.25" and for the Numbering Style (the style in the sample file is named InFrameNumbLeftAligned), the Offset amount is -0.25"

Clear as Mud? After you have a play with the sample file, feel free to ask for clarification...and if anyone reads this and finds an error, please feel free to speak up.

Mike
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RGB
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Re: Bullet Points and Numbering and Hanging Characters

Post by RGB » 22 Dec 2014, 16:42

Thank you. While I still do not fully understand the relationship between the values that I enter and the effect that they have on the list, I have been able to achieve the look that I want with a bit of tinkering.

Moreover, thanks to this tutorial, I have successfully applied hanging characters for punctuation. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvXmcjuKBNk

By the way, to apply a style, I use Ctrl+Shift+F to call up the configuration dialog. In your second screenshot, you have one tab that I lack: General. How do you access it?

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MikeWenzloff
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Re: Bullet Points and Numbering and Hanging Characters

Post by MikeWenzloff » 22 Dec 2014, 17:28

Hi RGB--you're welcome for anything that helped...

The dialog box. You are using a Mac, yes? I am uncertain anymore about the differences in the dialogs between OS's, but I use Windows. I (probably) get the same version of the dialog box when I press ctrl+shift+f (no General tab). But if I click the Edit button (the pencil) in the Style Sheets panel, then it's there. I usually click on the Edit icon when taking screen shots. So if you click the Edit icon and it isn't there, it's another difference between the OS's.

Hah. From the thread title, I see I completely overlooked the Hanging Characters part of the query! Sorry about that.

Mike

RGB
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Re: Bullet Points and Numbering and Hanging Characters

Post by RGB » 22 Dec 2014, 17:48

I'm on a PC too.
MikeWenzloff wrote:But if I click the Edit button (the pencil) in the Style Sheets panel, then it's there.
Ah! That's the one place I didn't look. Properly organizing style sheets is still on my to-do list. I'm sure that there is a great deal of functionality with which I have not yet got to grips.
MikeWenzloff wrote:From the thread title, I see I completely overlooked the Hanging Characters part of the query! Sorry about that.
No apology is necessary. :) I purposely avoided asking about hanging characters in my posts because I wanted to tackle one issue at a time and because I know that people's time is limited. I was fairly sure that a bit of googling would turn up an answer and posted it when I found it for future reference.

njhemily
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Re: Bullet Points and Numbering and Hanging Characters

Post by njhemily » 13 Jan 2015, 09:36

Except the format window is gone in 10, is there a way to still see it?

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