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Option drag duplicate destroys object hierarchy

Posted: 30 Jan 2019, 13:27
by chandlerbing
This happens at least 50% of the time on every installation of Quark 9.X I use (and I'm pretty sure it was doing it in Quark 8.X also). When I use the option-drag method to duplicate an object in a layout it destroys the entire object hierarchy of the page or spread. It seems all picture boxes instantly drop to to the back of the layer. They may be jumbled in completely random ways — I haven't checked thoroughly — but at any rate the entire layout is destroyed. Text flow is destroyed, images go behind other objects, and so on.

The odd thing is it seems to be only a screen error of some sort. If I close the file and re-open everything is back to normal. I can even save the file with everything showing on screen as out of hierarchy, and when I re-open it it's as if it never happened. But until I close the file, the issue persists, making it impossible to keep working on the document.

Considering how pervasive this has been in my work environment I have to assume this is a known issue. What gives? Is there a way to prevent this from happening? It's not destroying work permanently, but it's certainly frustrating and time consuming to have to close out of my document and re-open it half the time (or more) that I duplicate an object this way.

Re: Option drag duplicate destroys object hierarchy

Posted: 31 Jan 2019, 15:55
by UtahLlama
is q9 ok with your OS?
is Jan2019 the actual date of your posting or is this a ghost in the shell post :D

Re: Option drag duplicate destroys object hierarchy

Posted: 31 Jan 2019, 16:54
by chandlerbing
Should be OK. We're all on Yosemite. (Staying competitive in print publication by not spending tens of thousands of dollars in upgrades that do literally nothing towards advancing our business needs, but I'm not here to justify that.) Is there a conflict between Quark 9.X and Yosemite that might cause this behavior?

Re: Option drag duplicate destroys object hierarchy

Posted: 01 Feb 2019, 13:09
by UtahLlama
sorry to say it sounds like an incompatibility
there is a long post from Matthias
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=26849

At my old workplace v9 was running on 10.6, we then used Migration Assistant on a new iMac on Yosemite and it would run but never had a a lot of use.
I tried to install on a 2nd Mac using Matthias method but it would never run. Nor would v8.

Strange enough I can get q v8.5.1 open under High Sierra but its very flaky, (wouldn't really run under Yosemite) .

You do realise that the killer must-have new feature with all upgrades is simply making it work with the latest OS/Hardware LOL :D

Re: Option drag duplicate destroys object hierarchy

Posted: 01 Feb 2019, 18:10
by chandlerbing
Yup, that's how they force customers to pointlessly spend tens of thousands of dollars. If this is the only side-effect we'll continue to live with it. Upgrading Quark means upgrading the OS, which means upgrading all our other software, which means "upgrading" Adobe to monthly subscriptions for all workstations. If they do all that they'll probably need to let someone go. ;)

Re: Option drag duplicate destroys object hierarchy

Posted: 04 Feb 2019, 10:40
by Matthias Guenther (Quark)
Hi Chandler,

so you are implying that when we released QuarkXPress 9 we planned that a few years later QuarkXPress wouldn't run anymore? ;-)

Actually, we don't do that. I still have QuarkXPress 9 running on Mojave, many other customers too. It runs ok, with a few issues.

It shows though how solid QuarkXPress is; despite all the changes Apple made, it still runs there as we didn't put in anything to prevent it from running.

However we do not fix QuarkXPress to run on any future operating system. All versions have their end-of-support date;
QuarkXPress 9 was sold from 2011 to 2013 and we do publish the macOS versions it supports: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4608&f=14&t=4608 MacOS Yosemite was released 2014.

And I feel that is your advantage using QuarkXPress, no need to pay us unless you see features that benefit you or Apple changes something that needs to be addressed in QuarkXPress.

By the way, this year Apple seems to change two major things, notarizing apps and end of 32-bit support. The latter will prevent QuarkXPress 9 (and eg InDesign CS6) from running under the new version of macOS.

Thanks
Matthias

Re: Option drag duplicate destroys object hierarchy

Posted: 04 Feb 2019, 11:38
by chandlerbing
No need to be defensive, I wasn't implying anything about Quark at all. The whole computer industry is built around the profit model of ever-increasing obsolescence. In the old days you bought your tools once and used them until they wore out. My X-Acto knife still works exactly the way it did 40 years ago. My rulers, T-squares, lupes, etc never needed to change, because they did what they needed to. Software and computers, on the other hand, have an upward limit to the usefulness of change. While the earlier versions were primitive in comparison to later versions, at a certain point Adobe and Quark did absolutely everything I need them to do, as efficiently as imaginable.By now, additional features have mostly become unnecessary, at least to getting my own work done. Just speaking for my own situation. Now we're simply stuck in an endless cycle of trying to keep up with other people's upgrades. That's not Quark's fault. It's just the way things work. It's hopelessly expensive for individuals or smaller companies working at narrow profit margins.

I absolutely appreciate that Quark has run so smoothly for so long. We're sort of stuck with Quark 9.5 at this point because as far as I've been able to determine, any further upgrades would require us to upgrade our OS past Yosemite, which would require us to upgrade to Adobe's Creative Cloud system, which we are loth to lock ourselves into. Eventually we'll have to, mainly because the internet will eventually fail to work with OSX Yosemite, forcing an upgrade to the latest OS, forcing an upgrade to later design software, and so on. But none of those expenses will materially improve our workflow or our ability to get things done. So by delaying the expense as long as possible we're saving ourselves tens of thousands of dollars. It's just a business decision, and I appreciate that using Quark has allowed us to save so much money for so long.

Re: Option drag duplicate destroys object hierarchy

Posted: 05 Feb 2019, 13:04
by MikeWenzloff
I have nothing to really add to this discussion...

But your example of physical tools (X-Acto knives, T-squares, rulers, etc.) reminds me that they too are not fully immune to change. I do wood working as a hobby largely using hand tools. My hand tools, many/most 200 years old and some more than that, work perfectly. Same as when they were created. Except in a wood called Lyptus.

Lyptus is a biologically-engineered wood meant for fast, sustainable growth. If I recall, it was introduced within the last 20 years. It is also quite dense/hard and a bit stringy. My old tools really don't like this wood. It takes a different blade angle than was available in the old tools in order to have a good effective cutting angle and a bit longer cutting edge retention (sharpness retention). In woods that were available that compare in density/hardness, these old tools work very well.

Well, I may have one thing to add to the discussion. I appreciate the capabilities Quark has added since version 9. While they do not really affect things like a novel (which I do a fair amount of...and there are things Quark could yet add to make them quicker), in other types of layouts I can now make fresher designs. The text shading is one notable improvement. Adding JavaScript is another--in that Q can now do data merge without an add-on unless one needs the extra capabilities of an XTension. But there are other things like the new hyphenation routines that I can obtain better justified text in even novels.

Mike

Re: Option drag duplicate destroys object hierarchy

Posted: 05 Feb 2019, 14:41
by chandlerbing
Right, I wasn't speaking for everyone. Our company has great working tools that do everything we need for our situation. Others may want or need the later additions and improvements, and want still more.

I always wished you could just buy features or "tools" instead of upgrades (and I always liked Quark's Xtensions concept for that reason) but as computers keep evolving and upgrading, and everyone else's software keeps evolving and upgrading, it's impossible ultimately to keep up that way.