embedded font overkill

Discuss QuarkXPress print functionality and printing workflows
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Glenn McDowall
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Joined: 03 Nov 2004, 05:45

embedded font overkill

Post by Glenn McDowall » 20 May 2005, 05:53

Ok I've asked this on the ID forum, but no-one has explained it, and quark forum members have a broader knowledge :D

I have an IDCS file with placed ID eps files (these eps have embedded fonts)
So for example 10 eps files all using 4 weights of AG Buch.
When I EXPORT to Pdf I get fonts embedded subets for each weight embeded in these eps multiple times (say 40) plus the same fonts used in the document. If i print postscript and then Distill I just get the 4 weights embedded once each.

If I place these eps into qxp6.5 and print postscript and distill (even without having the fonts activated) I only get one of each weight in the pdf.

Can anyone explain? :roll:

renny
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Joined: 05 May 2005, 04:50

embedded font overkill

Post by renny » 20 May 2005, 09:31

Out on a limb here, but it sounds more like an issue with the PDF job options and how the subsets are embedded.

Would be helpful to know more about the difference in your route to PDF between the two apps.

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Glenn McDowall
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embedded font overkill

Post by Glenn McDowall » 31 May 2005, 06:13

Hi renny

been away for a week, hence slow reply.

IDCS(1) Export: "subset fonts below 100%"
IDCS(1) print ps: "download fonts - Complete"
Quark6.5 print ps: I'm embarrassed to say, I can't find a dialogue box regarding font downloading. Is this part handled now by OSX?
Distiller 6 have "subset fonts below 100%"

jonesy17
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Joined: 11 Aug 2004, 15:34

embedded font overkill

Post by jonesy17 » 31 May 2005, 08:36

[strong]Glenn McDowall:[/strong]Quark6.5 print ps: I'm embarrassed to say, I can't find a dialogue box regarding font downloading. Is this part handled now by OSX?

Yes, I believe that's right.

To try to answer your earlier question, EXPORTING from InDesign is definitely not the same as PRINTING PostScript. Exporting uses the PDF Library to generate the PDF file while PostScript (obviously) has to go through Distiller. The two processors are similar but not identical. Therefore one should not expect identical results.

You might also notice that the fonts in your EXPORTED PDF have a CID encoding on them: this is a function of the PDF Library and its support for double-byte fonts. However, some older RIPS will panic when they encounter this. As we often have to deal with the lowest common denominator in prepress/printing, I would avoid using the Export as PDF option.

Robert

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Glenn McDowall
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embedded font overkill

Post by Glenn McDowall » 31 May 2005, 11:28

I'm speculating here.
ID EXPORT to pdf uses fonts embedded in the eps and treats each as different font because otherwise it might be be using a font just of the same name. However it converts these embedded fonts to CID.
Quark 6.5 has no access to the embedded fonts in the eps so must put them into the postscript "As Is". Distiller then is smart enough to embed them as a single subset.
ID "PRINT postcript" is doing the same as quark but not converting to CID.
Can anyone confirm?

EXPORTING, as I understand it, is generally less risky than printing postscript when you have placed pdfs since pdfs may be more advanced than level3 postscript. Fortunately my RIP is ok with doublebyte fonts but I understand your comments about lowest common denominator. ID has actually cleaned up some troublesome pdfs via its EXPORT menu.

If I get time tomorrow I'll try IDCS2.

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Glenn McDowall
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embedded font overkill

Post by Glenn McDowall » 07 Jun 2005, 09:46

IDCS2 EXPORT to pdf gives me same result; lots of Embedded subsets of the same name of font. Only difference appears to be that they are type1 ANSI instead of CID. :cry:

Anonymous

embedded font overkill

Post by Anonymous » 11 Jun 2005, 11:10

Glenn,

if you place an EPS file in an Adobe inDesign layout and you use the PDE export function, the integrated Distiller library has to convert the PostScript code of every placed EPS file into PDF code. This PDF code is embedded as an Form XObject into the PDF code which is generated by Adobe InDesign from the other page objects with help of its PDF library.
As Distiller only "sees" only a single EPS file at a time and has no knowledge of the other EPS files it isn't able to do the same kind of optimization as Acrobat Distiller does if a PostScript file of a complete layout is processed.
So every EPS file is a standalone entity with its needed resources within the exported PDF file.

As QuarkXPress 6.x uses no native PDF export as Adobe InDesign does but just prints a PostScript file which get processed by the built-in JAWS PDF Creator library you get the same result as if you would distill the PostScript file.

Bivouac Ponzetti
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embedded font overkill

Post by Bivouac Ponzetti » 12 Jun 2005, 09:06

[strong]rzacherl:[/strong]As QuarkXPress 6.x uses no native PDF export as Adobe InDesign does but just prints a PostScript file which get processed by the built-in JAWS PDF Creator library you get the same result as if you would distill the PostScript file.

InDesign CS2 encodes fonts the same way Distiller does, I think. One of the enhancements for this version was standardizing the way the encoding choices are made when the PDF is created. There may still be other subtle differences in the resultant PDF's, but CID encoding should no longer be a concern when exporting directly from InDesign.

Anonymous

embedded font overkill

Post by Anonymous » 12 Jun 2005, 10:43

Hi Bivouac,

that might be true (I didn't see a final CS2 version in action yet) but has nothing to do with what i wrote and what the original poster asked.

If I speak about the differences between a native PDF export and what QuarkXPress 6 is doing I don't speak only about the aspect of differences in font encoding. I'm speaking about the totally different technology used by both applications. Adobe InDesign doesn't use an interim format during export as QuarkXPress does. This interim format used by QuarkXPress is PostScript.

Only parts of the InDesign layout which are already placed as PostScript code, namely EPS files, have to be converted from PostScript to PDF format. That's done by the embedded Distiller library within Adobe InDesign. And because these EPS files are processed individally without any connection to each other no optimization of the resources shared by these EPS files happens. Such resources are fonts, color spaces, ICC profiles, etc. That's the reason why the same fonts might appear several times within an exported PDF file.

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Glenn McDowall
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embedded font overkill

Post by Glenn McDowall » 15 Jun 2005, 05:27

Thanks for the replies.

IDCS2 encodes the fonts ANSI but doesnt optimize like Distiller.

Robert, just to show I've been paying attention,
"A Form XObject is a kind of PDF within the PDF. This means the page description of the form object is absolutely independent from the "parent" PDF. This is a mechanism which allows to very efficiently and securely to put PDF content into another PDF without any side effects which could arise by identically named but different resources. It also is a means to reduce file size since a form object can be repeated several times without having to embed the code more than once.
A Form XObject can't be broken into its individual components by Enfocus PitStop Professional. From the user's point of view it's a kind of object group."

Could a large number of these "Form XObjects" be responsible for a RIP losing parts of the pdf?

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