Why, I ask, why?

Kick back on the couch and discuss all things not directly related to QuarkXPress.
Tim OConnor
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Joined: 01 Jun 2004, 15:44

Why, I ask, why?

Post by Tim OConnor » 07 Jun 2004, 12:31

longtimedesigner wrote:

Clearly, I disagree

As is your right :)

Bill Detty
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Joined: 01 Jun 2004, 00:32

Why, I ask, why?

Post by Bill Detty » 07 Jun 2004, 13:14

Funny how people can read the same things and disagree totally on the conclusions.

To the extent I read Adobe's InDesign forums (fairly little, as I'm not advanced enough with ID to contribute much and clever enough not to have too many problems I can't figure out on my own) I've never felt unwelcome for being a Quark user; except for one or two easily-ignored people, the tone there doesn't seem all that hostile.

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Why, I ask, why?

Post by Linda » 07 Jun 2004, 18:17

[quote=10:80cbad73fb]As someone named above, I feel that's a license reply to this...

The "venom" you speak of is due to the fact that these are QuarkXPress forums. They are not InDesign forums. Telling someone who has an XPress problem that "InD can do that better/faster/easier" does not help someone solve their XPress problem. If we (the collective "we") wanted an answer about how to solve our problems with InDesign, we'd ask the question on an InD forum.

I would expect someone to shut me down equally quickly (and equally "venomously") if I were to troll the PageMaker or InDesign boards, and my input to the questions asked there was, "XPress can do that. Why wouldn't you want to use XPress? It's clearly superior."

It's less about what was said than about the appropriateness of where it was being said. These forums are not the appropriate place for anyone to eulogize another page layout application. These forums are to answer questions people have about QuarkXPress. The bashers never respected that.

Time to take this to the Sofa. :-) Oh, wait... it hasn't been delivered yet...


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Why, I ask, why?

Post by longtimedesigner » 07 Jun 2004, 19:31

I think it's fair game to discuss competing products on message boards.

First, you're going to have people who want to evaluate the benefits of both products against one another, especially if they're making a purchasing decision.

Second, some people will want to evaluate the program they have to determine its value against the competitor - or decide whether they want to upgrade.

Third, sometimes a competing product will offer a viable alternative in a workflow situation. If switching is a viable solution for someone, they may want to learn about the competing product.

Sometimes, people may innocently recommend that users evaluate the competing product and are doing so for egalitarian reasons. There's no sense in jumping down their throats for doing so.

Anyone can ignore a post, or state that an alternative may not apply in their situation.

I don't believe there is, or should be a global rule for page-layout software users to refrain from discussing competing products on either Adobe or Quark boards. It is highly educational and helps others make evaluations to suit their needs.

In some situations, it would be inappropriate to offer the competing product as an alternative. Generally speaking, however, I don't see a good reason for restricting a good flow of information.

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Why, I ask, why?

Post by Linda » 07 Jun 2004, 22:08


I'll say it again. If I ask, "How do I set a runaround in XPress?" a helpful answer is NOT "InDesign can do that because it's better!"

"Use InDesign" is never an answer for someone who is asking, "How do I do this in XPress right now?" If someone has a months-long project and the deadline this week, and is up against a wall with an issue, it in no way is helpful to tell them to start over with InD. That's as if you have a flat tire, and you ask me, "How do I fix a flat tire?" and my answer to you is, "You should take the bus! You never have to fix flat tires when you take the bus! You don't ever have to pump gas when you take the bus! The bus is best! Everyone who has taken the bus knows this. Why on earth would you not take the bus? What's the matter with you?" All of it may be true, but NONE of it helpful when, right now, you have to fix the flat tire.

That's not saying that discussion isn't useful -- when it's appropriate. But if you think that's what was going on on this forum before they closed it down, you have a short memory.

When someone asks, "I'm going to be doing XYZ project and I need to be able to do ABC. How do I go about setting it up?"... there's an opening for pointing out how a competing product can be useful. Or if someone asks about features in an upgrade. But that's a tiny minimum of the kinds of posts here. Most are user questions -- not hypothetical.

As for "skipping" posts that you don't want to read, that ain't easy to do when you're desperately seeking a real answer to your question. It's even harder when you're a grunt at an office/type shop and you use what your boss tells you to use. Last thing you need is some zealot telling you what a stoopid second-rate human being you are for using QuarkXPress.

I bought the whole CS Pro suite four months ago. So far, I can't see what the fuss is all about. I can see where *designers* like InDesign, but it's got some weird quirks that make it less than intuitive for long-document production. Having both loaded, I prefer XPress. That's a good thing for me, since only one of my clients will accept any InDesign files -- and that's only for some of their projects, not all of them.


I still maintain it's in very poor form to answer someone's question about XPress by telling 'em to use InD instead.

Linda 8)

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Why, I ask, why?

Post by longtimedesigner » 07 Jun 2004, 22:23

Linda, while I agree with you that it is inappropriate in most cases for someone to jump in and shout, "Switch to InDesign" when someone is asking a technical Quark question -

I disagree with the following statement you made earlier:

These forums are not the appropriate place for anyone to eulogize another page layout application.

These forums are very appropriate to discuss competing products, especially for people who want to learn about the tools of the trade, or are in the process of making purchasing decisions.

As far as long document production, I've produced several long documents with InDesign. I prefer it to Quark by far. You may not think it's intuitive because you've gotten used to working with Quark and haven't put the hours into InDesign. Then again, I don't know. What exactly were you having problems with? What are the quirks you experienced? Sometimes, it's something as simple as hitting the "shift" key to autoflow text.

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Why, I ask, why?

Post by kenlasley » 08 Jun 2004, 07:09

I maintain that it is poor form to say that a program has long document quirks. That is simply a false statement. The statement should say, I cannot figure it out. I produce catalogs with 200-300 pages without any problem.


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Why, I ask, why?

Post by willmark » 08 Jun 2004, 07:38


Im not quite sure why it is me you are attacking. My previous post had no ill will towards you merely an observations (correctly) to carry on non-technical/troubleshooting threads in the sofa. Id reference my previous posts there but quark in their wisdom has decided not to make the old forums available again. I never had a problem with you personally nor should it be taken as such, maybe if anything I should have stated that other users such as yourself merely asked that the discussions be moved to the sofa rather then in the tech discussion boards, Thats what was meant/intended, not that you were in the boat that I would lump the others. Im not looking to troll so please dont take it as such for this is neither my intent nor purpose.

I now treat the quark forums as I do the PageMaker forums. I do not participate in any discussions other than the general Future of PM or DTP threads or when someone pops in and asks about PM on OSX. I try to confine myself to those threads only (generally speaking). I believe that it would be ill-advised for me to answer questions about Q5 or 6 based on lack of use with the apps, hence my confining myself to this thread.

In the past on these boards I would mention InDesign if asked or participate in threads that Q v InDesign were the topic, thats it. So to paint a broad stroke that I would just suggest is ill informed, or maybe you have me confused with another user.

Just a hypothetical: For how many years would one gather that Quark users sneered down their noses at PageMaker users and say Use Quark instead No ones immune to this. Quark is now on the other end of the equation.

I will also disagree. If a user is looking for help on a issue within say Quark 5 on a run-around question I highly doubt that the first place any competent individual is going to look is a thread with the rather ambiguous title of Why I ask Why. Then again all things being equal.

In short discussion is good, and please dont think that I was attacking you, that was never my intention, there were plenty


Why, I ask, why?

Post by Anonymous » 08 Jun 2004, 08:42

As far as I'm concerened, ID is irrelevant in these forums unless it's a venting thread or a thread specifically about comparison. It's ok for a QuarkXpress user to want the software he or she paid good money for to work. By drawing comparisons between QuarkXpress and InDesign on that basis is fair.

Suggesting ID as a solution to a QuarkXpress technical question is absolutely counter-productive. And LongTimeDesigner, you've been through this very discussion many times at the Mac Design Online QuarkXpress Forum, and you've agreed to not offer up ID as a solution to a QXP tech question in a QXP tech question thread. We trust you will honor that agreement in this forum as well.

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Why, I ask, why?

Post by longtimedesigner » 08 Jun 2004, 09:21

Bigfeet, I never suggested InDesign for someone asking a technical Quark question on the MacDesign boards. I won't do it on these boards either.

I caught a lot of crap from some users on that board when I said, "It's going to happen, it always does." As far as I'm concerned, that's just being realistic. Though I'm a realist, I acknowledge that in most cases it's inappropriate.

Nevertheless, how many times did people on that forum state, "These are Quark forums and InDesign shouldn't be discussed at all - so go away!"? I don't believe that's appropriate either. I didn't get that cozy, friendly Quark feeling over there, so I hope the same thing doesn't happen here. We'll see.

I think it's important to know the strengths and weaknesses of the applications for some people. First, it's interesting for some of us. Second, it's important for some of us who are making business decisions. The best place to find out information about a product is directly from the day-in and day-out users of that product. That just happens to be on a product's forums.

If you purchase a product, you have every right to evaluate it and let people know about your experiences. If you are unhappy with the product, find an alternative product, and discover that many others are unhappy with the product, discussing the alternative is perfectly legitimate. Even so, discussing competing projects is a just a legitimate thing to do. Therefore, I hope we don't hear, "This is a Quark forum, we don't want to talk about InDesign at all, so go away."

Like I said, you won't get an argument out of me that it's most often in appropriate to blurt out, "Try InDesign," when someone is asking a technical question to use Quark.

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