Unnecessary complexity

Want to improve the Quark XPerience? Drop your suggestion(s) here, including feature wishes for future versions of QuarkXPress.
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thing
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Joined: 22 Nov 2004, 04:36

Unnecessary complexity

Post by thing » 11 Jul 2010, 01:40

The program isn't made deliberately difficult, the world the program works in - the industry that requires it, and others like ID - require certain things to be done in certain ways and they can't be achieved by programs with lesser abilities, like MS Paint etc. (or the abortion that is MS Publisher).Saying it resides in an elitist world is, in a sense, correct as to use the program well one needs a certain degree of knowledge and skill way above that needed to use more simple software. But then isn't that the same as the analogy made earlier in this thread in regards aircraft? Some are relatively easy, some require much more skill and knowledge.Face it mate, we're not elitists - those of us that can use Quark, ID, etc., - we're skilled. And we are skilled because we took time to learn the software and the requirements of the industry because we wanted to work in it. It's up to you to learn the software or not, to work in this industry or not, but to say the software is unnecessarily complex without knowledge of why it's complex is kind of ignorant. If you can demonstrate how repro ready artwork can be created in something like MS Paint, or Photoshop if you really want, (and I mean a layout with images, type, etc., that will be able to go to a RIP and work) and can do so quicker than I or any of my fellow professionals can using the industry standard software then go for it and I'll stand corrected.

Emma
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Joined: 07 Jul 2004, 08:43

Unnecessary complexity

Post by Emma » 11 Jul 2010, 03:16

Oh yes, I've heard of elitism. Decent literature is elitist because it uses big words. Classical music is elitist because it uses more than 3 chords. Quark and InDesign are elitist because you need to learn them. (I'm assuming dreeves would have had exactly the same reaction to ID, because it's only those of us who know one really well that care enough to criticise the other!)Down with elitism. Let's tailor the world to those who are too thick or too lazy to develop. We could have reality TV shows, dumb movies and... oh hang on, we've already got them.

thing
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Joined: 22 Nov 2004, 04:36

Unnecessary complexity

Post by thing » 11 Jul 2010, 05:49

Chuckle chuckle (but not, of course, in any kind of elitist way)

LuisV
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Joined: 25 Mar 2010, 14:19

Unnecessary complexity

Post by LuisV » 14 Jul 2010, 16:29

Funny, people that use other problems and can't do one thing, or the other thing then come back to Quark. Once you do learn how to use it, it is actually faster than those other programs.

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eyoungren
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Unnecessary complexity

Post by eyoungren » 14 Jul 2010, 16:32

It's also more thought out. The GUI designers for XPress have really thought about where to place things, especially keyboard shortcuts. Not a whole lof of that kind of thinking in ID, even when you've learned it.

LuisV
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Joined: 25 Mar 2010, 14:19

Unnecessary complexity

Post by LuisV » 14 Jul 2010, 16:42

Well, whatever it is you think about us or QuarkXPress your opinion of the program is not going to change the industry. It's not even going to convince your potential employer to start using Photoshop for layout in whatever it is they do.
Very good point. And the Original Poster (OP) is really venting his learning curve into a program that brings together under one roof many disciplines and other programs. Can you do multiple page layouts in Photoshop? How about Illustrator? Can you then convert them into Web, interactive? What Quark is trying to do in the industry is fantastic. I wish it had tried to do this a few years back. Or perhaps this is the right time, where the code for Web, interactive flash, has become standardized enough that it can be brought together under one roof and execute fast, with minimal knowledge of programing. And one more thing, If you are going to gripe about something in a forum, also be open to the rebuttals that other people post, otherwise you are as closed minded as the people you are claiming to chastise.

marcusstringer
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Unnecessary complexity

Post by marcusstringer » 14 Jul 2010, 18:39

eyoungren wrote:especially keyboard shortcuts. Not a whole lof of that kind of thinking in ID

Now I know you're kidding, right???
Apart from Style Sheets you can assign Keybord shortcuts to almost anything in the program.

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eyoungren
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Unnecessary complexity

Post by eyoungren » 15 Jul 2010, 05:53

Not kidding. I will give you that ID allows you to customize shortcuts. It has that over XPress. But out of the boxno, I'm not kidding. And while this is a great feature I would bet good money that medium to large organizations probably don't like it too much. 50 workstations all with their own keyboard shortcuts based on the designer using that workstation?
I think part of the problem is conformity. In order to make ID work a lot like Illy and PS certain keyboard shortcuts have to carry over, even if they don't make sense in the layout app (but they do in the other app). The worst is when they make no sense in either app.

marcusstringer
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Unnecessary complexity

Post by marcusstringer » 15 Jul 2010, 10:57

No they are user difined shortcuts, it still retains the core set which every ID has, you can set up as many shortcut set as you wish

I'm not sure about Quark (only have 6.5) but the ability to GREP search is another must have feature.
The ability to anchour an object relative to the spine, eg if your object is lined up to the outside margin and you page turns over that object will stay along the outside margin, instead of ending up in the gutter
Image

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eyoungren
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Unnecessary complexity

Post by eyoungren » 15 Jul 2010, 12:12

My issue is with the core set of shortcuts, not the user defined ones. The one's you can't change.
Everything else you have mentioned is good. Not arguing those points. ID has a lot of good points and in a lot of ways I do like it better than XPress (as you and I and me and Greg have discussed time and again). I just generally dislike the GUI, although the screenshots you sent me that one time have gone a long way to easing that dislike.

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